six coil alternator in a narrow case 250

[DewCatTea-Bob]

Furthermore by MotoMike...
" The Schematic supplied is interesting. "

____ Yes, indeed it is,, but may not make too much sense without knowing the rest of the related electrical-system wiring-layout.


" It is an old fashioned design but uses a full wave rectifier, "

____ Old-fashioned or not, it works on a very interesting & uniquely sensible principle !
And by the way, it does NOT employ a 'full-wave' rectifier set-up, or anything the likes of such, actually !! ...
__ Whoever constructed that diagram was fairly competent of course, but he
ASSUMED (wrongly!) that the 4 internal diodes were arranged in a common bridge set-up, (and so drew them arranged in a bridge fashion), BUT they're actually NOT ! ...
The two diodes shown on the right-side of his (incorrect!) bridge-drawing, are ACTUALLY the only pair of power-diodes, used to half-wave rectify the corresponding pair of alt-windings.
The other two (1-amp) diodes (shown on the left-side of his bridge-drawing) are simply used to ONLY run the charging-light circuit. _ And on top of those misleading assumptions depicted, I'm certain that he has those left-side diodes drawn reversed from how they actually ought to be, (probably cuz it fit his assumption that the 4 diodes were in a bridge-type set-up).
__ (Now if I pretty-much always agreed with the masses I find myself amongst, then all my (then)- regular/standard comments would probably be considered as normal/common thoughts, amongst same. _ But I don't care to be popular amongst all peers by simply following-along & not proclaiming the actual/unpopular facts. _ I tell things like they REALLY are, and if yar someone who chooses to believe that I must be wrong cuz I don't happen to agree with whatever the common-belief is, then I can pretty-much assure ya that it's yar certain loss !)


" and instead of limiting current through the bridge by employing a switching SCR or the like, limits it by saturation in the coils shown. "

____ Your assumption that the regulating choke-coil effect varies depending on core-saturation, is in basic agreement with the more common working theory accepted for this type of set-up. _ But in this case/example, I have my very-own independent theory to suggest, for someone like yourself to shoot-down or consider as a possibility.


" I think I see how it works, but if it is inaccurate or not the one that applies to our discussion, I'll not get too far into it. at least not now. "

____ I invite you (if you wish), to assume that I'm the one who's wrong about the circuitry of the stock n-c black-box & that depicted diagram of it,, and go-ahead & try to make logical/true sense of all the circuits, just as seemingly depicted ! _ (It could be interesting if you find it all could work right, some how, some way,, as it's scheme-depicted, just as it is.)
But I suggest doing so, only if you have time to waste.
I hope to post a corrected schematic-diagram, in due course.
__ A thread concerning this n-c current-regulator has already been started over a year ago, and I think that in-depth discussion of it's more detailed workings, would be better placed within that same thread.
So for now, within THIS thread,, I think we should relegate discussion to just the rectification aspect, (and after you've gotten more familiar with the more complex workings, we can then discuss them in the other/old thread).


" I must at times chuckle over my frustration with you as when it comes to clear wording, I opine you are the kettle calling the pot black. "

____ I'm not sure of what you may really mean here Mike, but I'm gathering that you often find my wording hard to follow, (cuz it's certainly not unclear)...
I believe that I make most all of my wording as clear as possible, for what all it's meaning to convey ! _ I'm sure that 'clarity' itself is not the actual issue, but rather the reader's ability to follow all the thoughts contained within my wording. ...
Unlike the vast majority of other post-writers, I-MYSELF go to extensive-length to CORRECTLY punctuate & use spacing, all in effort to help with correct & easier understanding of my wording.
__ I think that many readers these days are too used to reading common 5-word sentences, and thus loose the ability to easily follow longer trains of thought. _ (Thus become unclear.) _ Realizing this, I often break-down my longer sentences...
So at times when a reader may tend to get lost off main-track (of the sentence), he could just read-through the sentence, skipping over all wording within these: ( ) marks, as the words within those brackets are usually merely to help the reader avoid misinterpretation. _ Now knowing that that's done purposely, you ought find that my wording will make better sense for you. _ But skipping-over that added wording doesn't really need to be done, because I word ALL wording to blend-in sense-wise, read with OR without the added wording,, it just depends on the reader's clarity of mind to hold-on to all the thoughts and register them in mind, accordingly.
__ Please always quote any of my wording that doesn't make perfect sense to you, so I may clear it up for you.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

Bob:
This conversation started with me stating to the OP that I would need to see a schematic to understand how his proposed diode connections could work. Then you requesting that I explain myself. I did and then you wanted it explained as it pertained to your comments. It really had nothing to do with your comments, but I complied.

I don't think it would achieve the desired goal to attempt to point out every time I am confused by your explanations. My ego can only take so much bruising for my poor reading comprehension and further admonishments to think a little harder. Mind you I'm not sure that is the problem, but further discussions in this vein will not achieve understanding (for me at least). I think that I will refrain from discussing things electronic here without a print to reference. Then a worthwhile discussion may ensue. These odd ball circuits in the Ducati's are maybe unique, but they are not so complex that they can't be figured out. Some are actually very clever I think. But in the world of complex circuits they are pretty simple. But no one who wishes to understand them on a fairly deep level can do so when the alternator is depicted as a circle with wires exiting to a regulator that is a box.

[ecurbruce]

Please go back and read as I stated this just an idea, and I've gone as far as possible,
When I reassemble my engine, and can spin this thing, I'll test it all out,
An d let you know just what works, how it works with some statistics, and provide a
Schematic of how it's put together. Till then we're all just guessing?

[MotoMike]

Please go back and read as I stated this just an idea, and I've gone as far as possible,
When I reassemble my engine, and can spin this thing, I'll test it all out,
An d let you know just what works, how it works with some statistics, and provide a
Schematic of how it's put together. Till then we're all just guessing?

thanks Bruce. Looking forward to it.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: MotoMike...
" This conversation started with me stating to the OP that I would need to see a schematic to understand how his proposed diode connections could work. Then you requesting that I explain myself.
I did and then you wanted it explained as it pertained to your comments.

____ Well Mike, from my view-point, this thread wasn't progressing-forth quite the way as you've seen it to...
The way you had left your inquiry-post, I don't think anyone else (besides yourself) could've been very certain of who's post you were actually responding to,, and me not wishing for any others (especially Bruce), to assume that you were in orderly regards to the very-last post (which happened to be mine), I therefore felt the need to butt-in and mention something with hopes of then allowing other readers to become tipped-off, as to really what's what.
__ Anyhow, I'm sorry it seems you've become somewhat disenchanted, and of course I certainly regret that I seem to have much to do with it. _ If you thought anything I stated was stern towards yourself, it really wasn't the case ! _ As the majority of all my wording is meant to be directed towards the common-reader, rather than the particular poster who's post I'm responding to, (thus my use of wording such as "ya" & "yar", in place of 'you' & 'your').


" I don't think it would achieve the desired goal to attempt to point out every time I am confused by your explanations. "

____ I thought it actually might, however...
Because if any of my wording isn't clear to the likes of yourself, then there must be a significant portion of readers who may also have some trouble fully grasping my jests.
And that would then allow me to gather where I may need some improvement.


" My ego can only take so much bruising for my poor reading comprehension and further admonishments to think a little harder. "

____ Well I certainly never meant to suggest that you actually needed to think any harder Mike ! _ Only that there must have been something somewhere that wasn't clicking, since it's well established that there's no further excess power to be had, as you had suggested ought be available.


" Mind you I'm not sure that is the problem, but further discussions in this vein will not achieve understanding (for me at least)."

____ I'd doubt it's a real problem Mike. _ You just ought to allow me a chance to use other words for any wording I've used which failed to convey my intended jest, for you.


" These odd ball circuits in the Ducati's are maybe unique, but they are not so complex that they can't be figured out. Some are actually very clever I think. But in the world of complex circuits they are pretty simple. But no one who wishes to understand them on a fairly deep level can do so when the alternator is depicted as a circle with wires exiting to a regulator that is a box. "

____ That's pretty-much been the staus-quo of it all.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

Bob
Does this look right for the 6 pole four double coil set up? Couldn't find the thread you mentioned earlier feel free to move it to the right place if it is correct.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Does this look right for the 6 pole four double coil set up? "

____ Yes, your presented circuit-diagram appears to be quite similar to that of the black-box employed on all narrow-case battery-powered models with the 6-pole alternator with four core-coils and dual-alt.windings, (as well as those with the 4-pole alternator with two [separate] core-coils).
__ This schematic-diagram shows all four diodes properly circuited - (not in a bridge-arrangement). _ Diodes D1 & D2 are the 'power-diodes', while D3 & D4 are intended (mainly) for the battery charge-indicator circuit. _ You can now clearly see & realize that each alt.winding is connected to a pair of diodes which are set-up in parallel, (not 'bridge' style!). _ And since D3 & D4 are in series with the (low wattage!) indicator-light, that (secondary)- pair of diodes of-course need not be 'power-diodes'.
The only aspect I have against THIS depiction of the n-c black-box's circuits, is that it displays the inductor-coils as if they were merely simple AC-chokes. _ But their actual purpose is so much more involved than that !


" Couldn't find the thread you mentioned earlier feel free to move it to the right place if it is correct. "

____ Overall, it's more correct than the previous/related diagram, which has been located at this w.site ! _ But I'll not copy it over to the older thread, until after I've colorized it.
__ So Mike, where did you find this particular diagram anyhow, (as I've never seen it anywhere before!) ?
__ Now that you have a scheme to ponder that's correct as far as the rectifier & charging-circuits go, I think it would be a fair challenge for you to figure & explain how the charging-indicator circuit ought to work.
If I didn't think you were up to the task, then I'd now be telling of that circuit-operation instead, at this point.

____ I've added a pic showing the n-c type black-box with it's 6-terminals...
The Grey wire-lead goes to feed all loads ! _ And the Red and the Brown wire-leads are for the battery charging-indicator circuit.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

Do you mean that they are not depicted wound on a common core as they appear in the schematic you provided with the bridge depicted?
If so I'll correct it

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Do you mean that they are not depicted wound on a common core as they appear in the schematic you provided with the bridge depicted? "

____ I mean that the new-diagram doesn't include that same detail (which the old-diagram had - showing that the four inductor-circuits are all part of the same core-body).
That other/old schematic-diagram (which I provided a link to previously), does indeed depict all four inductor-circuits on a common core, just as is the actual case,
however this new diagram leaves that distinction un-noted.
__ It's been about 3-decades since I last looked-over the internals of one of those old heavy black-boxes, but as I recall, the core is shaped like a squared '8', with the two alt.winding outputs wrapped-around the outer ends, and the Grey & Red coil-circuits wrapped-around the center of the core.
Of certain importance (to my very-own theory), is the fact that all the coil-loop winding-turns are not turned in the same direction ! _ But unfortunately I don't recall the orientation of all 4-coils (without looking at one again).


" If so I'll correct it "

____ What is it that you'd correct, exactly ?


____ I've now added the new-diagram/pic with drawing-mods indicating the inductor-coils WITH core, (of which, increases choking-effect!).
Unfortunately, the interaction between the coil-windings is still left undecipherable, (similar to not being able to see which way a diode faces),
cuz their orientation-relationship remains un-indicated.


Curious-Cheers,
-Bob

[MotoMike]

Bob

I found the site in a link to mobile bay antique motorcycle club or something like that. will have to see if I can find it again. copied it so I could work on it as it was only the rectifier regulator schematic and it has become clear that we will need the alternator and associated wiring to discuss it's theory of operation. the author made reference to actually taking his apart and drawing the schizmo from it. I re-drew parts of it to include the alternator stator, chage light, ignition switch(both sets of contacts), ignition coil, plug (which I know I did not ground or correctly electrically depict),points condenser and associated wiring. As you know following the prints and trying to make a simplified drawing, it's easy to miss something or get it wrong, so that is why I asked you to take a look before we get into it.

to correct the coils depiction, I was going to redraw it with all four coils in close proximiety with a common core. Hadn't figured out just how I was going to do it, but now would hate to make you re-color everything. for purposes of discussion could we acknowledge that they are wound on the common core and recognize that when we get to discussing their effects on one another?

Bob, since we've gone far afield of he OP's topic, should this be moved to another thread of it's own?

I suspect that the phasing of those coils are critical in the regulation as is their being wound on the common highly permiable core. I'm guessing that saturation and opposing fields both have a hand in regulation. I think when we get to trying to regulate it, that we will be able to see the effects of phasing. one way will probably regulate while the other will cause it to run away.

a quick look at the charge light made me second guess it's function. when is it supposed to be on? seems like at first blush it might be a discharge light.

Mike