diana blue

[ecurbruce]

Pearlescent vs. pearlesque, yeah, maybe pearlesque would be a more accurate  discription. And no, pearlesque never crossed my mind at the time.Maybe mica in this reference  is more of a thought provoking clue than an absolute. The person that named that paint may have just meant in the spirit of pearle color, who knows...it's a name, not a formula. We may have to ask an Italian from the '50's to find out what's lost in translation.

Here is where I get "mica" from, used in modern paint. And I understand "modern" being different from what was happening in the '50's. It's just a reference for a clue to what's going on in that old blue paint.

Not trying to be right, just offering up clues...
Bruce

[bodge]

just spoke to them again,very helpful asked them about the paint formula.

A22 azzuro met = medium flake metalic
a31 celeste met = extra coarse flake metalic
a32 bleu mica = medium pearl,white (apparently the pearl or mica is still transparent just has a subtle white tint)
a34 bleu cielo = tint applied over silver base

ive gone for a22 as i didnt fancy the larger flake.may or may not be correct for a later mk 111 but ive got an earlier frame to paint too so ill see what i think when it turns up.

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= bodge ...
" just spoke to them again, "

____ Whoever "them" actually is, I still wouldn't expect a random person happening to answer the phone being the top-head who knows all the minute details the best, (especially if what you have listed for answers are the exact replies just as they were told to you).



" A22 azzuro met = medium flake metalic "

____ The use of the term "flake" could be misleading,, so when that word was used, the sales-rep should've mentioned that his use of the word should-not be confused with full-on/genunie 'metal-flake' paint-finish.



" a31 celeste met = extra coarse flake metalic "

____ This really ought be a description just for true/genuine 'metal-flake' only !
However no original/stock Ducati-factory paint application was a standard/regular 'metal-flake' type paint ! _ Nor is it acceptably valid to describe any such metallic-paint as 'coarse' (especially "extra course"), as far as duplication-paint that's supposed to be a reasonable reproduction of an old Ducati-single paint-finish is concerned !
So I find that the answers you've got are-not to be fully trustworthy !



" a32 bleu mica = medium pearl,white "

____ I think it may be fairly reasonable to refer to the 'mica' (micro-metallic) paint I've seen on Duke-singles as "medium pearl" (or even course-pearl), since such pearlesque paint appears so very similar to the mica-type paint which Ducati actually used, (as standard-type pearl-texture appearing pearlesque-paint looks a bit chalkier than standard-type [metallic-appearing] mica-paint).
But the sales-rep should've been keen to point-out that the use of the term "pearl" must not be confused with 'pearlescent' !



" medium pearl,white (apparently the pearl or mica is still transparent just has a subtle white tint) "

____ Since it's reasonably doubtful that the imitation/duplication-paint is truly consistent with the exact-same original paint-formula, some white-ish component may've been included in attempt to replicate the foggy-appearance of the actual mica-mineral, which can slightly vary in light shades of silver-gray.



" a34 bleu cielo = tint applied over silver base "

____ Whenever I repainted the fuel-tank, I'd paint the entire tank in silver-metallic prior to spraying-on such a tinted over-coat (on just the selected pattern-area of the rest of the tank).



" ive gone for a22 as i didnt fancy the larger flake.may or may not be correct for a later mk 111 but ive got an earlier frame to paint too so ill see what i think when it turns up. "

____ If you're so inclined to do so, it would be of interest if you'd provide a pic.example showing both your paint-choice samples equally sprayed side by side on a pane of glass.


Hopeful-Cheers,
DCT-Bob

[bodge]

unfortunatly i dont remember if the person i spoke to used the word flake or some other but the relative particle size is as i was told .
its the company i linked to earlier in the thread and the person i spoke to certainly seemed to know what they were talking about and was reading off the lechler spec sheets they mix the paint off which use the original ducati part numbers and italian names .
if you look at the picture of the cruiser i posted earlier the paint is obviously quite old and faded but it certainly seems to have a pearl look about it to me ?
i dont have any sheet glass handy but ill post a pic of the colour when i get it

[DewCatTea-Bob]

[quote= bodge ...
" unfortunatly i dont remember if the person i spoke to used the word flake or some other "

____ Such lost detail is no-doubt the main common-reason for why such descriptive-details are-not always kept logically-ordered, (and-so descriptive misidentification consequently runs-abound).


.
" if you look at the picture of the cruiser i posted earlier the paint is obviously quite old and faded but it certainly seems to have a pearl look about it to me ? "

____ Well since mica and pearlesque are so similar (even up-close), then of-course it ought be expected that they'd then appear pretty-much identical from such a remote distance. _ (Ya almost need a magnifying-lens to see the difference in the actual texture-appearances between true-examples of 'pearlesque' & 'mica' surface-finishes.)
But certainly that example of paint doesn't exhibit the extremely unique florescent prism/color-glow that only 'pearlescent' surface-finish radiates !



" i dont have any sheet glass handy "

____ No problem really,, as merely a glass-jar (from trash-bin) can pretty-much work just as well. _ Ya'd just have-to be more careful to avoid intermingling over-spray, (as both samples would then have-to be set closer next to one-another).


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[bodge]

just seen the notes i jotted down at the time of speaking to the paint supplier and if i wrote it down word for word they spoke of medium and large silver flake ? this may lead to confusion to the likes of me and you bob but im sure they know the differance beetwen a mettalic and a metalflake within the paint industry,they are after all doing it for a living theres also the possibility they were dumbing it down for me as im obviously not trade and a bit thick.

my understanding is that mica is the additive that defines a pearl paint,they are not differant or similar one is the defining ingrediant of the other.
from my reading of various paint forums and suppliers sites pearl/pearlescent is simply a word to describe the look of a mica infused paint which could also be substituted with the term pearlesque.

reading back thro the thread you (bob) seem to seperate mica from pearlescent due to the very differant visual effect of a basic pearl/pearlescent paint as used by ducati and others from the later more vibrant and obvious effect of what you consider pearlescent which is understandable but the paint industry dont from my research seem to make that distinction.

mica or its modern substitutes, within the industry seem to all be considered pearls or pearlescent/pearlesque the differant visual effects are created by different methods of application. the ducati/early method of using mica/pearls/pearlescent seems to be simply adding it to a solid basecoat. apparently the deeper the mica in the finish the more it "pops" so by clearcoating over the top of a mica/pearl/pearlescent base coat you get a more dramatic effect but it can also be placed in a tinted laquer over a solid base or in a solid base with a tinted laquer ontop or even used in a 3 coat system ! this maybe why, from my reading so far the industry dont use differant names for every possible effect you can create using mica or its modern substitutes they just talk of pearls and then the mixes and methods used.

this is my understanding from all ive read recently but im certainly no expert so if anyone can point to a definitive source on this ide certainly be interested.

although tbh if i hadnt allready ordered the paint ide be seriosly tempted to paint it red by now.

[ecurbruce]

Bodge,
That's a pretty good summary of what goes on with pearl finishes, sounds like you've been talking to a painter.....
Where you mention the effects of pearl finishes "pop", we call that "flop".
Here's an article from one of our trade magazines. It gives a little history of pearl.
 http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/behind-the-paint-history/
I agree with most everything  he says in that article, although  he doesn't  mention  mother-of-pearl.
I seem to remember  from back in my early days (70's), an old painter telling me about the use of mother-of-pearl  being used in automotive finishes in the 30's, but I don't have anything to back that up now... I don't think mother-of-pearl  is stable enough in automotive paints, but not sure. Isn't that made from crushed shell?

This is a pearl finish on my 250 monza- I know the color is wrong, but you can see the pearl "flop" in the sunlight.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1501&p=10700&hilit=fresh+paint#p10700

Bruce

[bodge]

very interesting read ecubruce even saved a copy for later reading again,didnt realise studebaker started as coachbuilders!reminds me of a story that a dim and distant relative was a coach painter and when his wife found hed drunk his weeks wages she went to his works and threw a bucket of sawdust over his current job !

youre bike is stunning bruce ! i can see the pearl where the sun hits it i imagine its even better in real life,im afraid mine wont look anywhere near as pro but i did take heart when i read somewhere the original ducati mettalics where quite often patchy as mine most certainly will be.

ill be spraying metallic from a tin which i know is far from ideal can you give me any tips? will i have to clearcoat over the top as a metallic shouldnt be rubbed is that right?

[ecurbruce]

Bodge,
Would be best to clear coat the metallic, yes.
Don't touch the base coat before clearing.use the same type of clear coat as the base coat is.
The reason metallic gets mottled up is that it's sprayed too heavy wet. There's a fine line between too wet and dryspraying, but you want that metallic to stand up in the paint and not sink to the bottom of a wet coat. This wet coat is even before it's too heavy coated to run. Overlap your spray patterns by nearly half, work from one edge to the other always spraying into the last wet spray pass. In metallics, if you go back and spray fresh paint onto a surface that has tacked paint, it will leave mottled tracks, best to wet cover entire surface all at once from one side to the other.
let metallic base coat tack off for about half an hour before applying clearcoat. That way the metallic will have time to set, and the clearcoat won't shift the metallic.

Bruce

[bodge]

thanks bruce that all makes sense if it all goes horribly wrong ill just do it red