battery problems

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" Let me start by saying that i put the battery on the charger again overnight. I recieved a reading of 6.18v while the engine was running when putting the meter between the battery ground and the red alternator lead.. [all wires connected] "

____ That's one correct way to connect your v.meter (so as to conveniently stay connected to the system-voltage when the battery's pos.wire is removed from it's box-terminal) but, black-probe directly to the R/R.unit's metal-casing SHOULD also obtain the same v.reading-result.
__ It would've been interesting to have noted your battery's voltage right after the overnight charge-up, before connecting-up to anything else.


" When i disconnect the battery lead from the r/r my reading actually increased to 6.75-7v at idle. "

____ I don't have any other explanation for the slightly-increased charging-system voltage (compared to the last time you performed same test), except to conclude that your idle-RPM (during those two separate tests), probably was slightly higher this time.


" When i swap the yellow wires i recieve the exact same readings. Diodes seem okay, "

____ Right,, that the engine's ignition still continued to run while the primary-alt.winding was now rectified by the other diode, now indicates that both rect.circuits are working okay.


" and 6.75-7v at idle does seem like enough power to charge my battery! "

____ Well actually, that understandably jumpy v.reading is with the ign.coil & points as the main-load (of the system), but whether on not such resulted/remaining system-voltage will charge the battery, depends on the battery's state of charge and it's resulting additional load to the total load-system. _ In other words, with the somewhat unpredictable load-resistance that the battery introduces to the total load-system, ya can't really depend on such straight-foward logic as you've concluded. _ So while your measured 6.75-volts may seem at least adequate to charge your battery, once the battery's load is added to the load-system, that system-voltage will fall to a lower amount (which may no longer be adequate to do any actual charging [at that same RPM]).
(Sorry for not leaving it so dumbed-down, as it had seemed to be. _ [Some don't seem to kindly to having their simpler-understanding made further complex.] )


" when i first started this testing and stated that the engine will not run with the battery disconnected, i was actually disconnecting the negstive lead from the battery.. Not disconnecting the positive lead from the r/r. "

____ That's quite alright, as it makes no difference, since either way, the battery is equally taken out of any circuit ! _ So therefore all of your related test-results would still be the same regardless.


" Now to perform the ohm flip flop test as you recommend. "

____ It now seems that that test is unnecessary since you've already done the other test successfully, but of-course it wouldn't hurt to double-check it this way,, and it may be of interest to others who have their stock R/R.unit removed from their w-c Duke.


" And to do so i need to remove the yellow leads from the r/r terminals, and probe the terminals where the yellows were connected white using a jumper from the metal of the box and my probe? "

____ That's all correct except I'm not clear on exactly what you mean about "using a jumper", since it would be best to press the meter's probe-tip directly against the metal of the R/R.box-casing.


" Is this done while ignition is turned on or off? "

____ The ignition itself being on or off doesn't really matter but, the key-switch ought be turned-on so that the battery's voltage will then reach the brown-connection so as to turn-on/activate the R/R.unit.
And to also see that all is properly working,, preforming the pair of flip/flop ohm-tests both with & without the R/R.unit being activated, ought to be of interest as well. _ So also try it with the key-switch turned-off as well.
__ As a side-note,, ohm-meters don't well handle powered-on circuits, so don't consider any notion of ohm-testing the brown-connection while the key-switch is turned-on.


" Hopefully when im all done, turn on my headlight and see it get brighter when the engine speed is increased.. It hasnt been doing so.. "

____ Seems like it would've, since your battery was so low.
A good v.regulator ought help kill any such varying headlight-intensity, but when the battery is low on charge, you really ought to be able to notice a fair difference when suddenly revving-up from idle !
____ It now occurs to me that perhaps the cause of the issue you ran-into with your Duke recently, may have been caused by having started your engine while with the lights already turned-on...
Have you done so ? _ Cuz if so, if your battery was not charged well enough when trying to get the engine started, it's no-doubt possible for the battery to have enough power-juice to allow the ign.system to create an ign.spark (to get going), yet at the same time insufficient voltage left to activate the R/R.unit,, thus allowing you to take-off & ride with the battery never getting any charging-current (from the stock charging-system).
That would be a rare circumstance, but if the lights were left turned-on the whole time, it would then be possible if your riding-revs never got high enough to raise the system-voltage high enough to turn-on/activate the R/R.unit (before the battery ran-down too low to even run the ignition-system and thus die on you).
Does this make any possible sense to you ?
It has not been an established common-problem but seems to fulfill your peculiar occurrence.


" when pressing the button to honk the horn you can hear a very faint tone.. This tone always sounded this way until engine was on and then the tone would get loud enough.. These days it never gets above the barley audible phase.. "

____ That is a regular common-problem with the stock-horn, as they get that way with age.
__ There are two things that may help...
You could try cleaning the horn's connections and perhaps replace the wire-end connectors and/or replace the stock thin wires with a thicker gauge of wire.
And also, there's an adjustment-screw&nut of which it's lockable-setting can be tinkered with so as to adjust the vibes of the horn-plate, to possibly make it louder.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

The one thing that really jumps out at me is when you state that it doesnt matter which lead is removed from the battery and that the engine should run with either way. Well it DOES NOT.. It will continue running only when i disconnect the positve lead from the battery into the r/r. If i disconnect the negative lead from the battery which is one single wire grounded to the same bolt that holds in the r/r box to the frame it stalls immediatly.
When i think about it.. -- when i take this ground off i'm opening the circuit and it shouldnt run.. Am i thinking about this correctly? Do i have this ground hooked up incorrectly?

-jj

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" The one thing that really jumps out at me is when you state that it doesnt matter which lead is removed from the battery and that the engine should run with either way. Well it DOES NOT.. It will continue running only when i disconnect the positve lead from the battery into the r/r. "

____ Alright, my BIG-mistake ! _ It's good that you brought-up this detail/fact...
I had failed to recall that you probably have the older 450 which has it's key-switch in the headlamp, which then includes a SECOND red-wire routed directly to the battery's pos.post-terminal. _ So your 450's ign.switch had an alternate (& sneaky) way of getting fed juice from the battery.
So this is apparently how your engine was still able to keep running... by the battery's store of power-juice, (and evidently not by the charging-system's output).
The big-mistake of mine was not making sure that we both fully realized exactly where you were to choose to disconnect the positive-side of the battery at,, as where-ever the particular chosen location happens to be at, can really make a significant difference (and I had failed to consider the possibilities of whatever your choice of disconnect locations).
A question which I now realize I need to ask you is, does the positive-post on your battery have just one, OR two separate, wire-connection(s) connected to it, (or just what exactly?) ?
__ This updated-revelation you've brought-to-light, may change something more than just that which first comes to my mind now,, that, being still that your alt.rotor may be out-of-time. _ To check-on that possibility, try disconnecting the battery (neg.side), while revving at least 2500-RPM, (with everything else turned-off, except ignition), to see if the engine still dies.
Another thing now, is you now DO have to do the ohm-meter flip-flop testing, (which I HAD said wasn't necessary).
I'll begin considering if this overlooked-circumstance may have any other notable effect on anything else of consequence, and report-back on it later.


" when i take this ground off i'm opening the circuit and it shouldnt run.. Am i thinking about this correctly? "

____ Well yes, IF the battery is the ONLY power-source available to run the ignition.
__ Thing is though, the charging-system may be thought of as another independent DC.power-source, and IT'S ground-connection is through the R/R.unit's metal-casing, directly to the frame.


" Do i have this ground hooked up incorrectly? "

____ Doesn't seem like it, as the single (ground)-wire from the battery's neg.terminal-post to one of the bolts holding the R/R.unit, is as stock !


Sorry-Cheers,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

A question which I now realize I need to ask you is, does the positive-post on your battery have just one, OR two separate, wire-connection(s) connected to it, (or just what exactly?) ?

****the positve post has one red wire going directly to the r/r, and one red wire headed up to the headlight and i believe inserted in the B+ location. My key is indeed in the headlight, the switch itself has three terminals but i am only using two. One terminal has a brown wire and a white wire, the other has a blue wire... Btw if the ignition is turned on and the engine is not running the blue wire gets pretty hot, along with the coil. If its running this doesnt heat up.

__ This updated-revelation you've brought-to-light, may change something more than just that which first comes to my mind now,, that, being still that your alt.rotor may be out-of-time. _ To check-on that possibility, try disconnecting the battery (neg.side), while revving at least 2500-RPM, (with everything else turned-off, except ignition), to see if the engine still dies.

**** engine dies immediatly when doing this. When i ran the test on the alt a couple of days ago the ac current was increasing by about 10v per 1000 rpm.

Another thing now, is you now DO have to do the ohm-meter flip-flop testing, (which I HAD said wasn't necessary).
I'll begin considering if this overlooked-circumstance may have any other notable effect on anything else of consequence, and report-back on it later.

**** will try the ohm test again. Use the Same hookup as recommended before the sneaky second positve lead was uncovered?

A thought... The r/r is not converting the a/c to d/c and thus putting a beating on my batteries.. Two toy batteries are shredded.. Im better at concepts than isolating definitive tests. Do you think this is happening? How would you test for this?

Btw no worries for making a mistake. I should have been more detailed in my description

[john jupiter]

"A question which I now realize I need to ask you is, does the positive-post on your battery have just one, OR two separate, wire-connection(s) connected to it, (or just what exactly?) ? "

****the positve post has one red wire going directly to the r/r, and one red wire headed up to the headlight and i believe inserted in the B+ location. My key is indeed in the headlight, the switch itself has three terminals but i am only using two. One terminal has a brown wire and a white wire, the other has a blue wire... Btw if the ignition is turned on and the engine is not running the blue wire gets pretty hot, along with the coil. If its running this doesnt heat up.

__ "This updated-revelation you've brought-to-light, may change something more than just that which first comes to my mind now,, that, being still that your alt.rotor may be out-of-time. _ To check-on that possibility, try disconnecting the battery (neg.side), while revving at least 2500-RPM, (with everything else turned-off, except ignition), to see if the engine still dies. "

**** engine dies immediatly when doing this. When i ran the test on the alt a couple of days ago the ac current was increasing by about 10v per 1000 rpm.

"Another thing now, is you now DO have to do the ohm-meter flip-flop testing, (which I HAD said wasn't necessary).
I'll begin considering if this overlooked-circumstance may have any other notable effect on anything else of consequence, and report-back on it later. "

**** will try the ohm test again. Use the Same hookup as recommended before the sneaky second positve lead was uncovered?

A thought... The r/r is not converting the a/c to d/c and thus putting a beating on my batteries.. Two toy batteries are shredded.. Im better at concepts than isolating definitive tests. Do you think this is happening? How would you test for this?

Btw no worries for making a mistake. I should have been more detailed in my description

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" ****the positve post has one red wire going directly to the r/r, and one red wire headed up to the headlight and i believe inserted in the B+ location. "

____ That is as stock, however I think -(meaning not really sure anymore) that originally, Ducati had those two red-wires with their ends both combined together-into just one terminal-end which they had to share, so as to thus-then have BOTH red-wires attached together to the battery's pos.terminal-post. _ So in THAT case, when either wire was ever to be disconnected (from the bat.post), BOTH wires would then have to be removed together at once.
But what commonly happens is that the bat.terminal-post becomes all corroded-up and thus the original/stock dual-wire end-terminal gets eaten-up and has to be replaced,, and when that occurs, most repair-jobs are then usually done with one new wire-end/terminal-hook attached to EACH of the two wires, (thus then allowing the possibility of each of those red-wires to be separately unhooked from the battery without having to detach both together at once).
__ So this is one (somewhat probable) communication-detail which I should've covered before assuming whatever you were actually doing to disconnect the battery's pos.side, for the related test.
I do think I recall you mentioning where you made the related disconnect, but then I must've failed to see in my mind's-eye the consequence of that particular disconnect-point. _ Thus MY big-mistake.


" My key is indeed in the headlight, the switch itself has three terminals but i am only using two. One terminal has a brown wire and a white wire, the other has a blue wire... "

____ That's all just as stock !


" Btw if the ignition is turned on and the engine is not running the blue wire gets pretty hot, along with the coil. "

____ This might be a good thing to have noted...
While the ign.coil should indeed get quite warm (with the points left shut), the blue-wire (which provides current from the battery) should NOT get "pretty hot" ! _ Rather, it should only become slightly warm to the touch.
Do you think you had discovered this excessive heat situation (on that blue-wire) after the lights had also been left turned-on for a somewhat extended time as well ?
__ With the key-switch left turned-on, but with everything else turned-off (including having the points in their open-position), see if that blue-wire doesn't then become cold (as it then should be).
Also, is your ign.coil the stock/original (red-label) type ?


" **** engine dies immediatly when doing this. "

____ Then since it doesn't keep running (with everything else not consuming alt.power), either your alt.rotor is not properly 'timed' with the ignition, or you may have something-else consuming at least a fair amount of the system's available power-juice.


" **** will try the ohm test again. Use the Same hookup as recommended before the sneaky second positve lead was uncovered? "

____ Yes ! _ The R/R-unit's varying one-way juice-valves -(it's dumbed-down to call them mere diodes), can still be tested same way as previously stated, (which should be done with the ohm-meter's probes connected with one to it's metal-casing and the other probe to either of the two (bared!) related -(yellow) terminals of the box.
Please let us know the results of your flip-flop test, this time.


" A thought... The r/r is not converting the a/c to d/c and thus putting a beating on my batteries..
Do you think this is happening? "

____ I'd doubt it, (assuming you know how to read that tricky AC/DC-meter of yours), since the voltage test-readings you had gotten (when the battery was disconnected) would then have otherwise been in 'AC' instead of 'DC'.
__ (It never hurts to do such speculation though !)


" How would you test for this? "

____ The suggested flip-flop testing should cover this possibility, (since your tricky AC/DC-meter won't allow you to try such separate functions).


" Btw no worries for making a mistake. I should have been more detailed in my description "

____ Actually, I-MYSELF should've been the one to cover all such details ! _ (I blame such oversights on time-limitations due to not easily finding extended time-periods left uninterrupted by my insensitive wife.)


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

PS. - jj, I've been editing your last three posts ONLY-just so as to use this forum's (somewhat) available highlighting-method for helping to separate another member's 'quoted-wording' from the present-poster's posted-wording.
Hope you understand.
I point this out now cuz I see you've done your last-post twice, once without and then once with the forum's available (but tricky!) high-lighting option.

[john jupiter]

In regard to my hot ignition switch wire... Its hot enough to make you quickly remove your finger when touching it.. But it only occurs when the points are closed. Takes a few seconds to heat up..
I dont remember seeing a red label, but i do remeber it being silver and "ducati" stamped into it... Is it criticle to identify? If so i will take off the tank.

I just performed the ohm test and the results with the ignition on and the ignition off are exactly the same. Zero ohms one way and a reading that was off the scale the other way.. This result was consistent with both yellow leads.. It was also performed with the yellow wires connected to the terminals.

I do have access to an older but very functional tester. But my knowledge of electricity is pretty limited as you can tell... If there is a definitive test i can do using this meter instead i will do so.. In playing with it just now.. And trying the same flip frop test.. I only got any reading when selevting a/c current.. But i have no idea whar significance that is..

I just read another post of regarding headlight wattage... 45watts max huh??? I just checked mine and i have a 6v 75watt installed..... Errrr

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" In regard to my hot ignition switch wire... Its hot enough to make you quickly remove your finger when touching it.. "

____ Wow, that's not right ! _ That's got to be checked-into and solved somehow.


" But it only occurs when the points are closed. "

____ Are you totally sure about that ? _ Are you positive that the main-lights weren't also on ? _ As the ignition alone should not do that !
Do you know if the whole blue-wire gets that hot, or is it just at that particular point where you've been touching it ? _ As it could be that that point just happens to have some broken strands of wire within the insulation there.


" I dont remember seeing a red label, but i do remeber it being silver and "ducati" stamped into it... Is it criticle to identify? "

____ Then it's no-doubt the stock ign.coil ! _ I thought perhaps someone (in the Duke's past) may have replaced it with an automotive-type coil (which draw considerably more current).


" I just performed the ohm test and the results with the ignition on and the ignition off are exactly the same. Zero ohms one way and a reading that was off the scale the other way.. This result was consistent with both yellow leads.. "

____ (You mean both yellow 'terminals' !?)
I can't definitely recall positively for sure, but still it seems like it would indeed matter if the key-switch is on or off, since the charging-system is not supposed to be able to function if the battery falls below "4volts" .
__ However, the results you got are consistent with good rect.diodes, (although that's not exactly what's in the R/R.unit).


" It was also performed with the yellow wires connected to the terminals. "

____ Well that would be okay if the connection to the battery, (and through it to ground & the box-casing), was disconnected,, otherwise leaving the yellow alt.wire-leads connected would allow an alternate path for the ohm-meter's test to check-through, (and the battery's power would pass-into the ohm-meter).


" I do have access to an older but very functional tester. If there is a definitive test i can do using this meter instead i will do so.. "

____ Well generally, the old needle-pointer type meters will indicated zer0 either when their DC-setting tries to measure AC, or their AC-setting tries to measure DC, (yet there's still tell-tale needle-movement to tip ya off).
So that may come in handy for you, when doing some tests.


" In playing with it just now.. And trying the same flip frop test.. I only got any reading when selevting a/c current.. But i have no idea whar significance that is.. "

____ Probably needs it's very-own battery replaced, as ohm-meters need their own power-source in order to check resistance.


" I just read another post of regarding headlight wattage... 45watts max huh??? "

____ Well, I know that the charging-system can handle that amount without notable trouble, but the "max" greatly depends on (certainly higher) RPM !


" I just checked mine and i have a 6v 75watt installed..... "

____ WHAT? - "a 6v 75watt" headlight ?? _ I've never heard of such ! _ Are you really sure your 6-volt Duke has been running a '75-WATT' 6-volt headlight ?
If really so, then is it a sealed-beam light, or off-road H4 type bulb, or what ?
Now I can see good-reason for that blue-wire getting so hot ! _ The stock-wiring is of insufficient gauge to handle such high current-demand ! _ You need to run relays & extra-hefty gauge wiring in order to remain sufficiently efficient and keep from overheating the related headlight wiring !
__ NOW, this newest revelation is quite likely the cause of your main-issue which you've come to discuss here !! ...
The stock charging-system can-NOT well handle the extra 40-watts of power-drain that your 75-watt headlight requires, WHILE riding at normal riding RPMs !
To keep your battery from discharging-down with that power-hungry light running, you'd need to keep your average-RPMs up to at least 5000-RPM, (to keep running down the road at night) !
So there's now little doubt that your ride which experienced the battery run-down and resulting engine die-off, was caused by not maintaining high enough average riding-RPM while also running that overly powerful light !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[john jupiter]

Ahh i took the ohm test with wires connected to terminals and disconnected.. Disregard the reading in the previous post.. The reading disconnected are 150k ohms , and .30m ohms... But on the second yellow terminal i can not get a reading either way.. The gauge cant seem to find a range and keeps cycling..
These readings and lack of a reading on the second terminal are consistent with ignition on or off, engine running or not.

The blue wire seems to be just very hott at the connection point on the key switch. The lights were definitely all off..

Headlight is a flosser 3130 6v 75/75.. It does have the h4 type three prong connection, its mounted in a cibie lens. Oddly enough the bike came with a replacment Narva brand, h4 6v 60/55w bulb.. Box says not for use in europe.. Haha

[DewCatTea-Bob]

" The reading disconnected are 150k ohms , and .30m ohms... "

____ That's a good reading-result, which ought to be about duplicated for both (bare!) yellow terminal-tabs (on the rect.box).


" But on the second yellow terminal i can not get a reading either way..
The gauge cant seem to find a range and keeps cycling.. "

____ It could possibly be then that that diode-circuit (without any ohm-reading) is faulty.
How about trying your other older-type meter on it ?


" The blue wire seems to be just very hott at the connection point on the key switch. "

____ Then that part of the wire has some bad/broken strands within, (thus acting as a bottle-neck there in that area, and thus dropping a bit of voltage), so ought to be replaced.


" It does have the h4 type three prong connection, its mounted in a cibie lens. "

____ Does that lens (& it's reflector) fit the stock-headlamp's shell & rim quite well, or is it a somewhat cobbled-up fitment affair ?


" Oddly enough the bike came with a replacment Narva brand, h4 6v 60/55w bulb.. "

____ That's certainly not stock either though !
__ I'd recommend that you consider switching-over to a 12v.system with resulting lower current-flow requirements of your stock-wiring.
Then you could also make use of a Sylvania 12-volt 65/45w H4-bulb.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob