battery problems

Ducati single cylinder motorcycle questions and discussions, all models. Ducati single cylinder motorcycle-related content only! Email subscription available.
Moderator: Morpheus

Moderator: ajleone

3564cam
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:56 pm
Location: Saint Albans England

Re: battery problems

Postby 3564cam » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:11 pm

oops here is the last picture
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Charging-indicator Warning-lights

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:11 am

" With regards to red charging lights,please see late narrow case wiring diagram downloaded from the Tech portion of this site.It clearly shows a charging bulb connected to the ignition switch on one side then to the regulator on the other. "

____ Certainly true of-course, however the color of the indicator-lens is not "red", but rather white.


" The widecase wiring diagram shows exactly the same system so I think my red charging light which goes out when I rev the engine seems correct. "

____ Actually, not only is it NOT "exactly the same system", the WideCase's is completely different ! - (Sorry to say.) _ And it has no indicator-light having anything at all to do with 'charging' (or discharging) !
The white-light on WideCase-models is claimed to be the "GEN indicator-light", (which, [contrary to pop.belief], doesn't stand for 'generator', but rather: "general" [power-On] ).
__ Since you have switched-over to LED.type lights and have an extra unit installed, you might possibly be able to re-wire two of them so that one-unit lights-up during the charging-state, and the other lights-up during the discharging-state,, so that when both units are off/unlit, you'll then have the break-even point effectively pin-pointed down to a more exact RPM-range.


" I have some original ones to fit,see pictures attached.Should there be three of this type or was the 3rd one different? "

____ Those stock screw-together type lamp-lens holder/indicator units were only two units per headlamp, while the third indicator-light was of another type of lamp-holder.


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

Eldert
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Hazerswoude Rijndijk Netherlands

Re: battery problems

Postby Eldert » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:53 am

Hi Guys
batterie technologie is catching up with us . there is a new generation Lithium / ion battery

Shorai is making these for motorcycle applications . they are superlite and supposed to last longer

time will tell tho

http://shoraipower.com/c-1-batteries.aspx

one thing they have a nice classic look

Eldert

john jupiter
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: battery problems

Postby john jupiter » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:02 pm

The MK es12-6 rnd is also one of my offending batteries. Just tested after 15 miles and a pickup truck ride back home. Its has 2volts and no amperage..
The first offender was a smaller dimension universal battery UB645. Lasted quite a bit longer than the Mk but also failed at after ~ 200 miles. 6 volts of output, but again no amperage.

QUESTION... I Just hooked up the conventional 6v yuasa and it started right up, while it was idling i disconnected the negative and it immediatly stalled. Is this what should happen? Or should i start testing my charging system?
1970 450 Jupiter

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Battery-problems and/or Charging-system Issues

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:34 am

" but also failed at after ~ 200 miles. 6 volts of output, but again no amperage. "

____ Have you since tried charging-up with any other charging-method ?


" I Just hooked up the conventional 6v yuasa and it started right up, while it was idling i disconnected the negative and it immediatly stalled. Is this what should happen? "

____ Well most definitely so if you had any lights turned-on,, otherwise at idle with all lights kept off, instant dieing-off or not ought depend on the exact moment when you disconnect the battery's assisting power-juice.
__ It would be more telling if you tried that test while at over 2000-RPM (for a very short period with lights off !).


" Or should i start testing my charging system? "

____ Your first battery having lasted during 200-miles of riding indicates that the charging-system was no-doubt working then, while your 15-mile trip would be about what could be expected running on just the battery (like a total-loss system), with the lights not turned-on.
__ Before further testing of your charging-system, first just check to see if the engine will continue running while at a higher RPM (with lights off !), when you disconnect the battery from the ignition-system.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

john jupiter
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: battery problems

Postby john jupiter » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:52 pm

Unfortunatly it stalls out immediatly with the lights off at any rpm. Tried at 2k, 2500, 3k.. Looks like i have an electical or charging problem..
1970 450 Jupiter

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Faulty Charging-system ?

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:59 am

" it stalls out immediatly with the lights off at any rpm. Tried at 2k, 2500, 3k.. "

____ Certainly before 3000-RPM, your charging-system should be supplying adequate power-juice to run just the ignition-system (alone without any lights) !
That it's not doing so likely means either your rect/reg.unit is no longer able to do it's job, or your alt.rotor is not properly timed to power-up the ign.coil (without help from the battery).
One way to determine which is your actual issue, is to let your battery run the engine while you check to see if there's any charging-output available from the R/R.unit.


" Looks like i have an electical or charging problem.. "

____ After you determine if there's any power at all being offered from your charging-system's DC-output, then we can trace-down whatever the actual fault is.
__ The stock R/R.unit is known to relatively easily go-bad whenever not kept wired-up as intended (while running). _ So if it's left running for long without the battery connected, it get's burned-out & becomes useless.
The unit does have a method to help protect itself from it's weakness, however...
It stays turned-off & non-functioning whenever it's connected battery is dead or off-line, by having a way to sense whether the battery is up to the job, and if so, then becomes turned-on, whenever the ign.switch allows so. _ As there's a connection (by way of it's brown-wire), from the ign.switch's outlet to the R/R.unit.
Thus if that connection is otherwise broken, the R/R.unit is then not able to be turned-on so as to be allowed to do it's expected job.
So there's a possibility that if the R/R.unit seems to be nonfunctional, it could be instead that it's simply not been turned-on (by a worthy/charged battery).
__ Another fairly common breakdown-issue concerns getting power from the alternator...
The source of the trouble is not the alternator itself, but rather the stock connected wire-leads themselves, as their insulation-covering severely degrades and easily breaks-away from the conducting-wire within, thus allowing alt.produced current to find & take a short-circuit, (thus not fully reach to the R/R.unit).
So another probability to possibly cause your apparent charging issue.
Aside from this one however, there ought be little concern of whatever the actual failure is, as most all other possibilities are rather easily solved.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

john jupiter
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: battery problems

Postby john jupiter » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:15 pm

Thanks for the insight.
I Installed a fresh battery to make sure my system would be turned on.
Also reconnected the wires connected to the rectifier module with new spades since the old wire ends were kind of frayed.
Tried to rev to ~2500rpm and disconnect the battery. When i did it stalled immediately again. (the 450 owners manual (page 34) states that it is not possible to run the motorcycle with the battery disconnected).
However im still suspicious because when i was running the engine i turned on the headlight and then reved the engine yet the light did not get any brighter.

I have a simple voltage meter from radio shack. If i put the red probe on the each connection on regulator under the seat i get the following readings at idle:
Giallio (yellow)- a little under 2.0 volts
Giallio (yellow)2 - a little under 2.0 volts
R/R - both show 0 volts
Brown - 0 volts
1970 450 Jupiter

DewCatTea-Bob
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Near SE side of Lake Michigan

Charging-system Output Check

Postby DewCatTea-Bob » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:07 am

" I Installed a fresh battery to make sure my system would be turned on. "

____ I don't recall the exact figure now but, I'm guessing that if the 6v.battery provides over 5.5-volts, it will then be able to turn-on the stock R/R.unit, as intended.


" Tried to rev to ~2500rpm and disconnect the battery. When i did it stalled immediately again. "

____ Then it's doubtful that you've yet solved whatever the cause of your issue is.


" (the 450 owners manual (page 34) states that it is not possible to run the motorcycle with the battery disconnected). "

____ Right now I can't counterclaim that particular claim as I'm not positive that I've ever actually done so with a '450', however I know I've run other wide-case DUKEs (which use the same system), and it was indeed possible to run the engine with the battery disconnected,, even with lights left turned-on !
I don't recall ever reading any wording to that exact effect, in ANY owner's manual,, however I DO well recall a given stated-warning to never disconnect the battery AFTER the engine is running, as doing so will most certainly lead to damage of the regulator-box, (or words to that effect).
That possibility is possible because once the ign.switch allows a good charged battery to turn-on the R/R.unit, it will then remain activated since the charging-system's DC-output then keeps the unit's internal-sensor fooled, same as if an adequately charged battery is still feeding it.
__ Could you please pass-on the EXACT wording you had read from within your 450-manual ? _ As sometimes it's translation is not done well and it's therefore quite possible to misinterpret exactly what it's stated wording had actually intended to convey.


" However im still suspicious because when i was running the engine i turned on the headlight and then reved the engine yet the light did not get any brighter. "

____ When everything is as stock, at idle the lights will be about as bright as if powered by just the battery alone, however quickly revving the engine up over 4000-RPM should indeed make (at least!) a slightly noticeable increase in headlight intensity, (even with a fully charged battery connected-up) !
If you don't notice any such increase at all, then you have very good reason to suspect that your charging-system is malfunctioning.


" If i put the red probe on the each connection on regulator under the seat i get the following readings at idle:
Giallio (yellow)- a little under 2.0 volts
Giallio (yellow)2 - a little under 2.0 volts "

____ I'm surprised you get any reading at those two AC points, as there's no intended circuit to ground from there.
You didn't confirm so but, I assume you've taken your stated readings while your v.meter's black test-lead/probe was well grounded somewhere, (preferably near where the battery's ground-wire connects to the frame).


" R/R - both show 0 volts "

____ That dual box-terminal location is merely a jump-connection point, and would only ever indicate the voltage of the battery, if the battery was still properly connected ! _ So without the battery or alt.wire-lead connected, "0" is to be expected since that box-terminal is just a dead connector-point.


" Brown - 0 volts "

____ That box-terminal test-point should indicate the voltage of the battery if the key-switch is turned-on (and the battery is still properly connected), otherwise without the battery, that brown box-terminal test-point would only indicate the system-voltage (whatever it happens to be), (assuming the brown-wire has remained connected).

____ For checking for DC-output from the charging-system, the test-meter's (V.DC) red-probe should be connected to the red wire-lead of the alt.cable (that's from out-of the motor-case). _ So to perform the test which you wanted to try, your red-probe should be secured to the dual red jumper-terminal on the box, then (with all else just as stock), start the engine and note the DC.voltage-reading (provided by the battery),, and then disconnect the battery, so that you can then note any voltage provided by just the charging-system alone. _ (This test should not be run for very long, and done with lights left off !)
__ If there's no voltage-output found, then next a test of the alt.output is called-for...
Set your meter to V.AC, and check the alt.cable for voltage-output between the red wire-lead & one of the yellow wire-leads, and then next, the red & the other yellow wire-leads.
(As I recall, the voltage-reading should equate about 10-volts per thousand-RPM.)
__ Let us know what you got, after you have had a chance to do the testing.


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob
PLEASE NOTE... If this-post is not-yet signed-off with '-Bob', then I'm still in the process of completing it,, and if not also included with 'DCT' near bottom as well, then I may edit this post's wording at a later time. - Dct.Bob

john jupiter
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:00 pm
Location: USA

Re: battery problems

Postby john jupiter » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:08 pm

When touching the red wire lead coming out of the engine with the red probe i get a reading of 5.86 volts.

When touching the red to either yellow wire i get about 10volts at idle and thst increases to about 19volts if i increase the rpm by about 1000!

Bike still goes dead as soon as the battery is disconnected so i could not calculate test 2

Page 34. Of 450 owners manual:
"important
It is not at all possible to run the engine without battery as there would be no excitation to the rectifier. Actually the engine can be started only if the battery voltage exceeds 4volts: if the battery is below 4volts the engine doesnt run. When the engine is running, the battery cables must absolutly not be detachedas the electronic rectifier would inevitably be damaged."
1970 450 Jupiter


Return to “Ducati Singles Main Discussions (& How to Join)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bendik and 37 guests