1966-Style Monza-model 250-Duc.Single Sold!

[DewCatTea-Bob]

____ Some fortunate eBay-er has just won for himself what looks to be a cherry example of a 1966 250-Monza !
__ I wonder if any one of us here is the happy-winner or at least knows who the winner of it was ?
I also wouldn't mind hearing the thoughts of the runner-up bidder, as to what he thinks about his loss, etc.
I'd like to think that at least one of the loosing-bidders (of the auction at the end of this related link - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 3AIT#v4-34 ), is registered here or at least is aware of our w.site here !
__ I'll be fairly disappointed if nobody else bothers to post at least a comment of some sort concerning this post-subject I've begun !


Hopeful-Cheers,
-Bob

[Rick]

for an additional $1650, he could have bought this one-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Duc ... 2560b4d4b4
I thought the Mark3 was a really good deal- didn't need much work to be worth twice the money. Wish I had some of that money stuff.
Rick

[JimF]

Just my opinion - yours may vary...

Bob, makes a great point - the Monza is for the most point "all there." I think because it has the square body work the bidding was less enthusiastic, and the end result was a great deal for the auction's winner. Having all the bits is a huge time and money saver.

Rick, I agree the Mark 3 would be more valuable, but that bike would take a lot of work and a ton of money to attain the highest value an M3 can have.

As the seller stated the M3 marked cases were broken and welded up and still in need of further repair. So the cases would need a skilled welder at least and perhaps the services of a machinist, and the engine would need a full rebuild to put the M3 cases on display. Also the paintwork was poor (so the seller admitted to.)

So beyond the engine case repair, full engine rebuild and paintwork there are many other problems that stand in the way of making that particular Mark 3 worth M3 money.

Some of the rare bits that are missing on the M3 are the curved kickstart lever and the correct factory clip-ons. Some linkage bits are missing from the heel-and-toe rear-set shift mechanism. The choke (enrichener) lever is not there. The Veglia tach looks like a reproduction. I would have to take some more serious looks at the frame to make sure that it had the correct mounting points for the rear sets as I seem to recall some narrowcase frames varied in that regard. I am also concerned that a brake light override switch is not mounted in the taillight bracket as the few M3s I have ever seen had them. The high-flanged aluminum-looking rims may be replacements for the original chromed steel Italian rims.

I am just a little suspicious that this bike is parts of a Mark 3 and parts of something else.

I kind of think that the auction price was reasonable given what was there and what was not.

Jim

[Rick]

You're both right of course- the Monza is more practical. From my perspective, unless it's been recently rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing, a 50 year old engine needs to be rebuilt, regardless of if the seller says it's 'running'. I just don't assign much value to a 50 year old engine based on if it's running or not. I've only seen one Ducati single head, but the one I have appears to have cast iron valve seats- my magnet sticks to them- so even a running engine probably needs to be torn down for new seats. If you need to replace seats, you may as well replace the guides, valve job, freshen up the bore, etc. The ball bearings are all cheap- except for the connecting rod big end bearing/pin- you should clean out the sludge traps, etc- you get my point.
It seems to me that the Monza doesn't have much potential to appreciate in value, no matter what you do to it, but a rough Mach/Mark model may be worth the time you spend on it- plus they're more fun. I don't view motorcycles as investments, and enjoy working on them, so what makes sense to me won't apply to someone who just wants to get on and ride without fussing around. But, of course, if you just want practical transportation, I'm not so sure that a 50 year old Italian motorcycle...you know what I mean.
Rick

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By Jim...
" I am just a little suspicious that this bike is parts of a Mark 3 and parts of something else. "

____ I certainly admit that the listing of the Duke brought to light here by Rick, is of much more interest ! _ And I really should've thought to title this thread as more to do with DUKEs sold on eBay, in general (instead of just the Monza) !
__ Anyhow, I had already had my own suspicions concerning that particular Duke...
So I've been ready to conclude that it's actually a PROJECT of gathered-up DUKE-parts assembled to SEEM to be a Mk3. _ No doubt including those REAL 'M3' motor-cases, (which were probably purchased as-is, so as to be thrown-into the deal for good measure).
__ The fact that that supposed 250Mk3 has no original-title (Mark3 or other) included, is certainly not un-suspicious. _ And I find that particular omission more degrading to that Duke's value than the lack of "M3" originally-stamped into the motor-case ! _ (That's because before 1965, Mark3-models did not include that 'M3' suffix !)
However, it's my own opinion that ANY Duke which has been assembled with 100% original-TYPE 250-Mark3 parts, is still a legitimate '250 Mark 3', regardless of WHOever put it all together or WHENever it was actually done !
Thus if it's motor-case was actually from a Monza, THAT makes no difference (since there were some factory-assembled Mk3s which included the same type of motor-case) !
But a more troubling aspect to this particular Duke being able to be called a real "Mark-3", is that the seller mentioned he used a "battery" to start it's engine,, and most every Duker knows that real Mk3s don't require a battery !
And if that Duke employs a Monza-type ign.set-up, then it really can't be called an actual "Mark 3" so far as we should be concerned ! _ But then the door is still open for referring to it as a 'Mach 1' . _ If the seller realized that, then that Duke may indeed be a Mk3, cuz otherwise if he had intended to pull-a-fast-one, it would've then been easier to just claim it was a 'Mach 1' with a non-M1 motor-case (and lost title) !
If it does actually have all the correct TYPE of parts, (not necessarily originally from original-Mk3s!), (and was merely hot-jumped with that battery), then I could accept it well enough as outwardly an example of a pre-1966 250Mark3, at any motorcycle-show. _ Even though it may be short of some of the popular-clues like Jim has noted it lacking of. _ Because the earlier & less popular Mk3-models were indeed originally lacking those popular 250-Mk3 detail-clues !


Dukaddy-DUKEs,
-Bob

[Jon Pegler]

Looking at the photos of the red 'Mark 3', it appears to have a UK registration plate fitted. (Just visible in one picture)
This may explain the lack of title documents.
In the UK, vehicles were issued with a logbook, now called a V5C document. This is the equivilent to the title in the US.
Both Mach 1 and Mark 3 narrowcase Ducatis were for sale in the UK in the 1960s.
The machine in question could have been assembled from any number of parts available in the UK.

Jon

[JimF]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 60605.html

Here's one that at first glance is a lot less questionable in terms of authenticity. On this auction the price reflects that.

I am no expert, and the only thing I saw in a cursory look is that the helmet bucket looks like the later wide case Mark 3 buckets (chromed rather than painted silver.) But I am not an expert and that might be bone stock original.

Maybe somebody on the list has one of these narrowcase Mark 3s with a chrome bucket. I really suspect though that someone took a widecase headlight bucket and mounted it on this narrowcase bike.

The 150MPH speedometer is a latter type (the earlier 150mph speedometers had a scalloped bezel) so that too makes me think the headlight bucket has been replaced and in the large view I can't tell if the speedometer is not sitting well in the headlight shell. Something in that picture looks awry, but it could just be my eyesight.

The bike has no rear sets or tach, but as they say; "I wouldn't kick it out of bed."

Someone here must know, did the Mark 3s come with rear-sets and Veglia tachs?

[wcorey]

On this auction the price reflects that.

It's an Aussie sale...
From what I'm hearing, with their strong currency and high demand, Australia is top 'o the market right now with the possible exception of Japan for some models.
Here in the USA, we're the cheaper market ATM and a lot of our classic Ducati's are headed down under. Good if you want to buy one now but maybe not so good in the future (unless you're selling)...

Bill

[DewCatTea-Bob]

By: Jim...
" I am no expert, and the only thing I saw in a cursory look is that the helmet bucket looks like the later wide case Mark 3 buckets (chromed rather than painted silver.)
I really suspect though that someone took a widecase headlight bucket and mounted it on this narrowcase bike.
The 150MPH speedometer is a latter type (the earlier 150mph speedometers had a scalloped bezel) so that too makes me think the headlight bucket has been replaced "

____ Well I consider MYSELF to be an 'expert' on old DUKEs, so long as we're in reference to Duc.Single-models which were produced for & imported into the U.S.A. ! _ So please everyone keep this admission in mind.....
__ If that headlamp had been stock on a n-c DUKE, then the fenders should've been similarly finshed to match, (as was Ducati's standard-practice) _ Ducati was understandably inclined to avoid using chromed-parts whenever possible (before 1967).
That whole head-assembly was more than likely originally intended for a w-c DESMO-model. _ (Non-DESMO WideCase-models have black-painted headlamp bucket-shells !)
However for this newer type Mk3-model, I'm not really too sure that the speedo's window-rim should actually be the old-fashion ("scalloped") ribbed-type, as I believe that that older-style rim/bezel was phased-out by late 1966.


" The bike has no rear sets or tach,
Someone here must know, did the Mark 3s come with rear-sets and Veglia tachs? ?

____ When I first laid-eyes on the auction-listing's main-pic, I thought it to be an early 1965-model but, the last-pic displayed that Duke's motor-number, which indicates it to actually be a mid to late 1966-model !
While the very early 1965 & older Mk3-models did not include any rear-sets either, (or the unique curved kick-starter foot-lever which was needed to work with them), the later Mk3-models did indeed come stock with rear-sets & the large-dial tach ! _ But by late 1966, Ducati had stopped exporting their Mark3 models with their rear-set type parts still installed.
(Incidentally, the very-early Mk3-models didn't include the tool-box/side-covers !)
__ Another curious incorrect-oddity (for a n-c 'Mark 3') is the included 'horn' ! ... As the n-c Mk3-models had no battery with which to power a stock-Ducati type horn ! (Although the 250 'Mach I' did have a horn & battery, it conversely did not include any tach !)
____ I've included 3-pix of the unique & outstanding-appearing (and certainly "rare") Duke, displaying the related subject-issues.....


DUKE-Cheers,
-Bob

[Rick]

I'm not a Pebble Beach, nit-picker sorta guy, but I am working on drawings that I want to be accurate. The Australian bike has the 'Mark' of the decal level, and the '3' tilted. I think the correct placement is with 3 vertical, like in this photo from an apparently award winning bike.

Looks like the same for a 'Mach1' decal- that the '1' should be vertical, with the 'Mach' tilted.
Was the factory placement of these decals random, or is there a right way?
Rick